Regarding Atheism (please feel free to ignore):
Someone asked me today to define why I "believe" in atheism instead of God, like they do. I'm certain that anyone, when asked why they follow a philosophy, set of views, religion, etc. immediately feels the same rapid-fire thought process go through their head as did mine. This process primarily focuses on the idea of exactly how ridiculous it is to try and respond to such a question quickly, shortly, or succinctly. You cannot describe why you believe in god/gods/spirituality/etc in 5 minutes any more than I can describe why atheism is for me.
That being said, for those who want a quick and dirty, here goes.
First, atheism is not a set of beliefs. It is the lack of belief in god/gods/etc. For me, specifically, atheism is simply an easy term to represent a wide range of philosophical views. Just like saying that one is a Christian is not a definitive answer, saying I am an an "atheist" is not definitive. We would need to discuss on a larger scale to get across all the beliefs.
Second, atheism is about logic, rationality, reason, and testable, provable information. Because it is about these things, it is also about change.
This is where some people are surprised. Atheism is about change. An atheist of 2,000 years ago would have held different views than one of today. Things change. What we know changes. What we don't know expands as rapidly, if not more so.
The most important aspect of change? If you are able to present irrefutable evidence that can be tested on the same scale as every other major piece of information/philosophy in history and PROVE IT, a "typical" atheist will be forced to change his mind.
This means that if you can prove god or he somehow proves himself to me, I will change my mind. On a dime. In a heartbeat. Without hesitation.
[Bruce Haskin] There is no proving it...that's why it is called Faith
Third, atheism, for me, is about distrusting authority that doesn't explain itself suitably. You would no more follow a government decision that told you that you had to give up 3 hours of every day to picking up garbage in your nearest city street without some kind of explanation than I will follow a belief that dictates every aspect of my life without some kind of proof of its existence.
Authority should be earned. In some cases, yes, it is acceptable for authority to act and demand without complete explanation - especially if a quick decision MUST be made for the good of all. But at some point, hopefully as soon as the DIRE in the dire situation is no longer valid, explanations must be made.
This means that atheism naturally questions aspects outside of god and mythology as well as within. I want to know exactly why we still allow lobbyists to effectively "pay off" politicians in this country. I want to know why congress is literally exempt from many of the laws it requires us to follow. I want to know why our country spends more money on "Defense" than ALL (yes, that is meant literally) other countries in the world, combined, yet we are downsizing the size of our forces and worrying about paying our troops.
Authority should be earned. With that in mind, what greater authority is there than one that dictates how you should live every aspect of your life? Morality should not be simply demanded of you without explanation. Morality should be explained and backed up. You should come into it with knowledge of WHY as well as HOW.
Thank you, Sgt Haskin. I wanted to address that as well. Faith.
Fourth, Faith. Faith, to me, is a cop-out word that means you no longer have to think about something. Instead of attempting to understand why something exists, many people "take it on faith." Instead of actually reading the book(s) that their "religion" is founded upon, they allow someone else to read it to them, tell it to them, or simply pick and choose as they will.
Instead of analyzing how and why your religious book came to me, you simply assume that what people have been telling you is true: that it IS true and was written by god and is infallible. This is despite the fact that the book(s) CANNOT be infallible as they were written by men.
One cannot examine any work of religious doctrine without almost immediately finding enormous contradiction in the work. When presented with these contradictions, most "believers" simply state that it is not, in fact ,a contradiction, or that you are "reading out of context" or that you are misreading. Yet, these same people cannot offer a real explanation outside of you must "have faith."
Testing faith: If you were told by a doctor that, when you went in for a flu shot, your leg must be cut off in order for this particular flu shot to work on your particular metabolism and then, when asked for an explanation, you were told to simply "have faith," would you trust that person? No, you would not.
Given that, why do you trust any one or anything that says you must dedicate your ENTIRE LIFE to a philosophy with no other reason than Faith?
Fifth, death. Well, what happens when you die? I don't know.
I don't know IS an acceptable answer. In fact, I don't know is an answer that most people SHOULD use instead of saying "You go to Heaven." YOU CANNOT KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DIE. You haven't died. No doctrine agrees on what happens when you die. There is no evidence to prove, in any way, that you have a soul, that you have a separate part of you that travels beyond this world into another.
What happened before you were alive? With you, I mean? Nothing. You were non-existent. This is the same thing that happens when you die, EXCEPT, you get to leave behind legacy. You can leave people, friends, memories, great or terrible works, or simply a mediocre life. That is all. It confuses me as to why this is something most people dislike and can't accept. I LOVE the idea ta this is my only chance at life. It makes me want to try harder in this life.
If you believe you are going to live forever in eternity and that to get there all you must due is follow a certain set of rules, then you are at terrible risk of not living up to a greater moral value in this world.
But I digress. I promised that this would be brief and I have already lied. I apologize.
I'll finish by saying this:
I do not MEAN to offend you when I say that I cannot believe in your way of philosophy. My primary purpose in asking about your belief or discussing my own is to share information. Exchange knowledge and try to understand one another. Following any belief, even atheism, without understanding why you follow is dangerous in the extreme.
I, as I am certain this applies to most "atheists" simply want the same even footing as every other way of thinking. However, in order to have that we must stop assuming that EVERYONE believes in some form of "faith based" existence. We don't. You don't. The field must be even. You must separate secular and spiritual and practice in your privacy. In fact, in one of the many, many contradictions of the Bible (specifically the New Testament here), we see that we are told:
Matthew 6
King James Version
1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
I posted the build up to show that I was not taking it out of context.
If you want to know why this is a contradiction and you are a Christian, then you should read more of your Bible.
Alright. I'm done. For now.
The very, absolute, last thing I want to say is this:
Please feel free to post on my board about what you believe as long as you understand that if you annoy me (just like if I annoy you) I reserve the right to remove it.
That being said, I am not easily annoyed in this regard. I like this type of discourse. I consider it of absolute and utmost importance.
• Christopher Hand
As a slight aside, another person I suggest discussing this matter with is Jeremiah Sager. He actually has a degree in discussing things like this (Philosophy) and is a highly intelligent person. He makes me think about the things I have stated above and is one of the people that will probably argue the heaviest about 90% of what I posted both with and against me.
For more famous people, look at Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, the late Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett (Not late at all), the Amazing Randi, Penn Jillette, Tim Minchin, George Carlin, Thomas Jefferson (regarding some of my points, not all), etc. There are many, many more, but in the interest of brevity (ironic in stating that in my ...9th response?) I will stop.
17 hours ago • Like
• Jeremiah Sager Thank you Christopher Hand. I do welcome the opportunity to discuss these topics with anyone that wants to.
17 hours ago • Like
• Jeremiah Sager
To follow up though. You do take some leaps in your argumentation that i wouldn't follow you with though. The doctor analogy, although well reasoned, misses the point of what an educated theist would respond with. Their god isn't a doctor they just meet. It's a trusted family friend they've known forever, that gives them guidance and grace. I still don't buy faith as typically understood in the least, but i'm not sure if you set up a straw man inadverently. Also, i don't know that i would quote the King James Version. It is treated as a near canonical text these days, but both of us know it was specifically and purposely altered. What i do find beyond interesting is that i spent a great deal of time thinking about this very thing today. A statement of disbelief, if you will. I do think it would be an awesome experiment for both of us to agree to a size, and format limitation to compare notes. Dealing with topics of why different religious formations, or beliefs are lacking.
• Christopher Hand
I think you would likely easily "win" such a debate because of prior knowledge, but I am constantly striving to learn more and am definitely willing to participate if, for no other reason, than to understand and learn.
Also, I typed all that really fast and didn't really put a good argument forth regarding the doctor analogy. I'd have to fix it.
Lastly, regarding the biblical quote, I used King James because most religious people would consider it the "most valid" but I DID take the few minutes out to compare it (albeit, yes, on a website I Googled) to other versions of the Bible so as not to let it be easily dismissed.
17 hours ago • Like
• Jeremiah Sager Also, the stories of the creation of holy books. They different. The beginnings of the Quran are quite different that those of the bible as an example. A muslim is, in my opinion, better able to argue faith in the infallibility of their text.
15 hours ago • Like
• Stacy Baer Good reading guys...please do continue...
11 hours ago • Like
• Jessica 'Bertke' Huff That is in no way "short"
10 hours ago • Like • 1
• Christopher Hand ~smirks~ When compared to what I could type on the subject, it really is short. But I understand what you are saying. I just kind of...got into what I was doing.
6 hours ago • Like
• Bruce Haskin Well, while I am not offended, as everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, I do hope that one day you find God. I truly do.
5 hours ago • Like
• Christopher Hand As surely as one day I hope you realize the error of following a belief and encouraging in others a view that holds no rational explanation.
Rick L Backhouse
Atheism may not be a 'set of beliefs' but it is a belief system. It is the belief that God does not exist or the belief that there are no deities. It really isn't used to describe a 'wide range of philosophical views'. It is used to describe a lack belief in deities. So .. "I am an atheist" is, actually, pretty definitive.
Second: Atheism is *not* about logic, rationality, reason or testable, provable information. It is about not believing in any kind of deity. As a philosophy, atheism is no more provable than a belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Any reasonably honest atheist will admit this. How you *justify* atheism is not the same as 'what it is about'.
Third: Well, okay, you used the magic phrase 'for me', which pretty much negates further argument. Bear in mind, however, that what you are saying is "This is my personal opinion and should in no way be confused for a definition of atheism."
In essence: You distrust authority and are attaching that to your attitude towards religion whether or not it has any place being there. (It doesn't, btw but kudos on trying to confuse people and good luck in your military career!)
Fourth: Oh, this is too easy, Chris. Atheism is the retreat of a lazy philosopher. When confronted with the question "Why?" the atheist says "Don't know, don't care, don't believe." You think that *FAITH* is a cop out when you refuse to look further than the and of your nose and ridicule those that don't agree with you? HAH!
Fifth: Yes ... "I don't know" *is* an acceptable answer. You repeatedly use words like *evidence* and *proof* and then slip in "I don't know*. Why the f**k not? I have to say, you sound more like a beligerrent agnostic than an atheist.
You quoted the Bible ... and?
I do have to ask, though .... why do you even *care* what others believe? You obviously do. You even go so far as to make insulting posts against specific religions. Why?
Do you need a hug? (Sorry, had to do that)
• Rick L Backhouse P.S. I know Christians with doctorates in Philosophy. Doesn't make them right.
about an hour ago • Like
• Rick L Backhouse @Jeremiah ... I am somewhat surprised that you would say that "A muslim is, in my opinion, better able to argue faith in the infallibility of their text" as there are holes in the 'logic' of the Quran that one could (metaphorically) drive a truck through. Perhaps you just have a very negative opinion of the Bible.
about an hour ago • Like
• Christopher Hand Hi Rick! I enjoy your additions to the conversation as well. The primary reason I asked Jeremiah to chime in and suggested that others talk to him as well is that he, without the degree he has, is a very intelligent and open individual. He enjoys learning and he is one of the most well-spoken individuals I know. More importantly, Jeremiah is very accepting of different viewpoints and is less...obnoxious about some of his views than I am. He's calmer and more intelligent. Also, he will be the first to tell you that he is not right about a great many things.
I won't answer FOR Jeremiah regarding the Quran, but I think the point he was trying to get at is that the Quran, while it has many contradictions itself, is younger and has less than the Bible. Which is true, especially if you combine the Old and New Testaments which are in themselves GIANT contradictions in many ways.
Regarding Atheism: The word Atheist merely means a lack of belief in god/gods in the most general review of the word. That being said, it is firstly amusing that one HAS to describe that view. You do not have to say that you don't believe in Santa Claus (for real), it is just assumed.
That aside, there ARE just as many differing types of philosophical views within what would be considered an Atheist structure as there are out of it. It IS a wide range of philosophical views. In fact, in my opinion, any good Atheist is goign to review a WIDER range of philosophical views and determine what they truly believe than will almost any person of religious views. Once you have your own religious view you no longer have to explore others.
Granted, Atheism itself is not ABOUT anything, but nearly every atheist I have come into contact with has valued rationality, reason, logic, etc as their basis of beliefs. However, you are right - atheism itself is not about these things. Then again, being a Christian, Muslim, etc does not necessarily mean that you follow common beliefs.
Regarding Authority: First, please don't be a dick. Saying "kudos for trying to confuse people" when that is not at all what I intended (as you should know) is dickish. I don't appreciate it.
Second, I stated "for me" because I understand that all philosophical beliefs are ultimately what YOU yourself make of them. On a broader sense I DO believe whole-heartedly and feel there is ample support for the idea that religion is closely tied to control via authority. One need only look at the history and the actions within various churches, organizations, etc to see the control religion exercises over the people who follow these beliefs.
From Rick: "Fourth: Oh, this is too easy, Chris. Atheism is the retreat of a lazy philosopher. When confronted with the question "Why?" the atheist says "Don't know, don't care, don't believe." You think that *FAITH* is a cop out when you refuse to look further than the and of your nose and ridicule those that don't agree with you? HAH!"
Faith is a cop-out that many use to not have to answer questions better determined through other means. In fact, the average believer does not even know the history and creation of THEIR OWN belief system. The average Christian, for example, does not know that their beliefs arose from heavy Greek influence (in more ways than the Platonic ideals). That is what I mean when I say faith is a cop-out.
Also, you say that "I don't know" means "I don't know, don't care, don't believe" when that is very much NOT what I was saying. I don't know is an acceptable answer and is an honest answer when confronted with something one does not know. Instead of supplying a ready answer (as does religion) one can say "I don't know" and follow that up with "but we can find the fuck out!" Religion does not do this. Religion assumes things on false knowledge. Religious people proclaim to know exactly what happens when you die, exactly how God wants you to act, etc. Despite the fact that god is not real, even if he were, how the hell can you KNOW the mind of god? How can you KNOW what he desires? And if you say "because it is in this book he wrote for me" you need to be able to back up why that book(s) is self-contradictory (which you KNOW it to be in many, many ways).
I quoted the Bible showing that the book itself proclaims (in one spot at least; this is contradicted elsewhere) that you should not go out and project your faith on others. It is arrogant. It is not something i necessarily agree with, but it is there.
Lastly, I care about what other people believe not out of any misguided sense that I want to change the way they think for THEM, but because THEIR belief, especially on a large scale, can and is often detrimental to me. Very detrimental in many, many ways. Scientific advances are stymied by religious views. Political standpoints are made using religious views. The fact that YOU believe in these things dramatically alters the way that MY LIFE functions. I dislike that.
Also, I honestly believe that anyone who actively questions their faith will at the very least learn how better to tolerate and understand the faiths of other people. Most people who proclaim a belief in god(s) do not do that. They find what fits for them and try no further.
And if I make insulting posts against specific religions that is because I find those specific aspects of those religions to be insulting. I try not to be terribly insulting myself, but it happens. I am an insulting indvidiual in some ways and for that I do apologize. I want people to review their belief, not turn away because I pissed them off.
• P.S. I always love hugs. Preferably from women with fantastic boobies.
3 minutes ago • Like
• Christopher Hand Now,with all that said, I do have a question for you. Can you respond with what you DO believe? Quick and dirty or long and detailed if you like. I am really very curious as to how a person goes from being "spiritual" to believing in Christ. Especially an indvidual that I consider to be intelligent, like yourself. Please. Share with us.
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